Yep, you always have to be on the lookout for the chart men!!!
I'm a watching bruther Leighton.
Charts, graphs and assorted dead sacred cows, all easily covered by the backhoe
Everytime someone posts a chart expounding the greatness of said bullet, gun, shotshell I'm reminded of the Robin Williams film Survivor where he is digging around in boxes looking for the right bullet for the right gun. Walther Matthau also starred in it.
Re: Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition « Reply #48 on Jan 18, 2011, 4:05pm »
I understand the data that supports the effectiveness of the shotgun for home defense but what I dont understand is how it can be recommended as a first choice. First if you have to pull a loved one to safety how do you maintain your weapon? If you have to turn on a light how do you maintain your grip? If you place the perp in cuffs how do you keep him covered with a shotgun while you cuff him? If you have to clear a corner how do you insure that the perp wont grab the barrel and begin a wrestling match for your gun? How do you use a flashlight with a shotgun? If its mounted on the gun then your aiming the muzzle at whoever is in the room(child, spouse) if you have one in your hand how do you maintain a good grip on the pump?
I personally have a shotgun for home protection but its a backup to my glock23 with glock light and a surefire in my hand. I can fire from a retention position, on my back, and one handed also if I have to cuff the perp I can do it one handed and retain my weapon,if I have to clear a corner it will be easier to keep my muzzle under control. In all of my training I have found that if I am woke up at 3am I am going to be better able to control a pistol than the shotgun. Also my children are in my line of fire if I have to shoot from my bedroom down the hall, would it be better to chance it with a shotgun maybe destroying a wall and buckshot hitting them or a single pdx1 that I know is going where I aim it?
What about over penetration of interior walls? If you harm a loved one was it at all worth the fight?
Not trying to pick a fight or say any one method is superior to the other but these are things I have considered when I have trained and prepared for what might happen.
Re: Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition « Reply #50 on Jan 18, 2011, 5:21pm »
No home owner should ever attempt to secure an invader, rep every thing in your post can be done safely , but you have to weigh the great harm, and in my mind at this time family comes first, if I have you at gun point and you decide to cut and run so be it, i'll not kill some one over property
Re: Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition « Reply #51 on Jan 18, 2011, 8:23pm »
Where I live it could be hours before LEO arrive there is no way I'm not going to secure a home invader if he survives the ordeal he is not going to be unrestrained for any longer than it takes to pull my cuffs. But back to the original questions, if it can all be done safely explain how.
I understand the data that supports the effectiveness of the shotgun for home defense but what I dont understand is how it can be recommended as a first choice. First if you have to pull a loved one to safety how do you maintain your weapon? If you have to turn on a light how do you maintain your grip? If you place the perp in cuffs how do you keep him covered with a shotgun while you cuff him? If you have to clear a corner how do you insure that the perp wont grab the barrel and begin a wrestling match for your gun? How do you use a flashlight with a shotgun? If its mounted on the gun then your aiming the muzzle at whoever is in the room(child, spouse) if you have one in your hand how do you maintain a good grip on the pump?
I personally have a shotgun for home protection but its a backup to my glock23 with glock light and a surefire in my hand. I can fire from a retention position, on my back, and one handed also if I have to cuff the perp I can do it one handed and retain my weapon,if I have to clear a corner it will be easier to keep my muzzle under control. In all of my training I have found that if I am woke up at 3am I am going to be better able to control a pistol than the shotgun. Also my children are in my line of fire if I have to shoot from my bedroom down the hall, would it be better to chance it with a shotgun maybe destroying a wall and buckshot hitting them or a single pdx1 that I know is going where I aim it?
What about over penetration of interior walls? If you harm a loved one was it at all worth the fight?
Not trying to pick a fight or say any one method is superior to the other but these are things I have considered when I have trained and prepared for what might happen.
The original post dealt strictly with the effectiveness of the shotgun. Nothing more.
The first gun I will reach for in the middle of the night is my pistol, but given a very short time I will have the shotgun in hand. But unlike you, there are no kids down the hall for me to be concerned about making safe. If there is anyone on the other side of a wall then it is someone who shouldn't be there.
Your considerations are not my considerations and the other way around. Each of us must decide what is best for us. There is no one size fits all approach to this.
BTW, it's not a good idea to fire a handgun either if the children are in the line of fire. Your bullet might not go where you think it will and as you say, it's not worth it if you shoot a loved one. Take your handgun and go after the children and secure them in the safe room, then break out the shotgun and keep the bad guy(s) from coming through that door. That is about all the shotgun could do for you. it's not the tool for taking with you on a house clearing mission.
I keep 00Buck in mine with slug's on the side-saddle. If it comes to needing more than that I'll be grabbing a rifle.
I agree, same here. Although, each individual must plan ahead of the fight. If you live in a apartment you may need to moderate your weapon or ammo. I live in a area were over penetration is not of any concern. Although, I remind folks that kit is not the driving force "mindset is".
I am more concerned with a dirt bag with a knife then a firearm.
I understand the data that supports the effectiveness of the shotgun for home defense but what I dont understand is how it can be recommended as a first choice. First if you have to pull a loved one to safety how do you maintain your weapon? If you have to turn on a light how do you maintain your grip? If you place the perp in cuffs how do you keep him covered with a shotgun while you cuff him? If you have to clear a corner how do you insure that the perp wont grab the barrel and begin a wrestling match for your gun? How do you use a flashlight with a shotgun? If its mounted on the gun then your aiming the muzzle at whoever is in the room(child, spouse) if you have one in your hand how do you maintain a good grip on the pump?
I personally have a shotgun for home protection but its a backup to my glock23 with glock light and a surefire in my hand. I can fire from a retention position, on my back, and one handed also if I have to cuff the perp I can do it one handed and retain my weapon,if I have to clear a corner it will be easier to keep my muzzle under control. In all of my training I have found that if I am woke up at 3am I am going to be better able to control a pistol than the shotgun. Also my children are in my line of fire if I have to shoot from my bedroom down the hall, would it be better to chance it with a shotgun maybe destroying a wall and buckshot hitting them or a single pdx1 that I know is going where I aim it?
What about over penetration of interior walls? If you harm a loved one was it at all worth the fight?
Not trying to pick a fight or say any one method is superior to the other but these are things I have considered when I have trained and prepared for what might happen.
1. I'm an ex-LEO, I do have cuff's, but unless I have someone who knows how to cover the perp while I do it, I can hold a firearm on him till the boys in blue arrive. There's more than one of us at home who are gun savy, so one person won't have to stand guard alone. 2. I have school age kids at home, pistol is grabbed first to go an secure them, and get them to safe room, then I transition to the shotgun. 3. I don't use a light on any of my firearms, I prefer to use the off hand to control the light, and lazers are a good way to get you killed(once you start using one, you start to put your focus on the little dot, under stress its kinda hard to find quick). 4. Like I stated earlier, more than one person here is gun savy, and I have no issue's with my wife or oldest son(13) having a loaded firearm issued to them once in the safe room, either one of them is a very good shot, and I've trained them both in defensive shooting. Mister BG who makes it into the safe room is in for alot of hurt.
Re: Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition « Reply #55 on Jan 25, 2011, 6:48am »
12 Ga. Mossy w/ 00 hangs on the rear of the wood headboard to the bed. I can reach it without having to get out of bed, should need be. GOOD light w/ momentary switch on muzzle end as well. Walls & ceilings are white so light reflects real good making it real easy to illuminate something without direct muzzle contact. ALTHOUGH, I will presume if you are uninvited at 1 AM you MAY be a BG.
No kids, just the wife & I. She is very handgun proficient as well, so God help you if you must deal with her! I like the scattergun, especially during the wee hours. It's ( 0dark30 ), I have been awakened suddenly by alarms, my eyes are a bit foggy, etc. I will welcome the scattering of pellets. Although the group / scatter may only be 4 or 5 inches, in my mind ( a scary place at times ) it still beats a single projectile.
Re: Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition « Reply #56 on Jan 25, 2011, 8:48pm »
Quote:
I understand the data that supports the effectiveness of the shotgun for home defense but what I dont understand is how it can be recommended as a first choice. First if you have to pull a loved one to safety how do you maintain your weapon? If you have to turn on a light how do you maintain your grip? If you place the perp in cuffs how do you keep him covered with a shotgun while you cuff him? If you have to clear a corner how do you insure that the perp wont grab the barrel and begin a wrestling match for your gun? How do you use a flashlight with a shotgun? If its mounted on the gun then your aiming the muzzle at whoever is in the room(child, spouse) if you have one in your hand how do you maintain a good grip on the pump?
I personally have a shotgun for home protection but its a backup to my glock23 with glock light and a surefire in my hand. I can fire from a retention position, on my back, and one handed also if I have to cuff the perp I can do it one handed and retain my weapon,if I have to clear a corner it will be easier to keep my muzzle under control. In all of my training I have found that if I am woke up at 3am I am going to be better able to control a pistol than the shotgun. Also my children are in my line of fire if I have to shoot from my bedroom down the hall, would it be better to chance it with a shotgun maybe destroying a wall and buckshot hitting them or a single pdx1 that I know is going where I aim it?
What about over penetration of interior walls? If you harm a loved one was it at all worth the fight?
Like Jessie says, what works for one person likely will not work, or not work the same way for another. Right now, for several specific reasons my home defense weapon is an M-1 Carbine. For years it was an 18-inch barrel, 12-ga pump, and probably will be again.
Also as Jessie says, some of your questions don't fit my situation, with no kids in the house. But here's how I look at some of those things.
I am not going to pull the loved one to safety. If there is someone or some animal making her unsafe, that's a problem a 12-gauge solves. I've practiced shooting the bad guy behind the hostage with the pump gun. I can do it.
I use a Surfire, and my plan is not to turn on the house light, which will blind me and make me more visible. The problem will be resolved by the time the lights come on, in most cases. If necessary, I can turn on a light with a shoulder or elbow while controlling the gun.
I'm not putting cuffs or anything else on the perp. If he didn't run away, he can lie flat on the floor with his hands laced behind his head and not make a sound or twitch. He moves from the position, buckshot solves the problem. It probably will take a half hour or more for the sheriff to arrive, but I don't care. He's the one laying in the broken glass and not moving a muscle.
I am probably not going to clear any corners. But I have extensively practiced shotgun retention. To keep it short, if he grabs the barrel, I shove it in his face and pull the trigger. If he ducks, I jerk hard back on the shotgun (remember, I have the handle pieces). If he lets go, I shoot him, if he doesn't let go, his arms are extended in front of him and his body is pulled around in front of the barrel - and Mr Winchester solves my problem for me. We can jerk the gun back and forth a few times, but usually on the first or second time, he gets a face full of buckshot. One way or the other, he's going to have a wild ride.
How do I hold a flashlight with the shotgun? Up to the point where he grabs the gun, it's no problem. When he grabs the gun, the light is dropped and the tug of war starts. There will be some light, I expect. But without the wrestling part, I started hunting rats in the barn and dairy at night with a .22 pump and a flashlight when I was about 10, which is more than 50 years ago. Nowdays I shoot armadillos at night with the same techiniques. Handling a long gun and a flashlight is sort of second nature, and I don't much think about it. For the reasons you mention, I don't have a gun-mounted light.
Again, those are my answers, and they likely don't work for someone else. I have confidence they will work for me, though.
Joined: Sept 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 594 Location: NC
Re: Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition « Reply #58 on Mar 8, 2012, 8:56am »
As the proud owner of a new saiga 12 gauge I'm re-reading this thread. I also brought Magpul's Dynamic Shotgun DVD set and it appears to be extremely good so far. I can add my uninformed thumbs up to that of my former force recon friend who told me to get it.
Re: Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition « Reply #59 on Mar 9, 2012, 1:47pm »
Great thread.
I have the same concerns with using a shotgun indoors as a few other members here expressed. I'm going for my handgun if I'm going out of my safe room. Once I have my daughter and wife gathered together in the safe room, the 12 ga can come out.
I've tried moving around indoors with my 12 ga enough to know that I would much prefer to do it with my handgun.
Though I have been trained to and am capable of handcuffing perps doing so does not constitute part of my home defense plan.
I'm comfortable with using a mounted flashlight on both my handgun and long gun.
There is no way I would try a one handed technique with my shotgun.
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